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Post by mikekip on Nov 3, 2019 4:50:12 GMT
Can someone please help clarify how smoke impacts OF LOS and Shooting LOS.
Situation - Player 1 places OF marker with a clear line of site. Player 2 on his turn places a smoke grenade in a position to break LOS to the OF marker. Can Player 1 fire at Player 2’s soldier that then moves through the OF area which is now behind the smoke?
Situation 2 is the same as Situation 1 with the addition of Player 2’s soldier has the ability to move and shoot and is looking to move into the OF area behind the wall of smoke and then fire through the smoke at the enemy that placed the OF marker.
I hope this makes sense.
I believe the root question is does smoke break/block LOS so that units can’t see to place or maintain OF markers or shoot at a enemy targets.
Thank you for your assistance.
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Admin
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Post by Admin on Nov 3, 2019 13:13:16 GMT
Hi, yes, this is one of the things that is explained more in details in the rule book, that is why it ended up being 60 pages when the rules themselves are only about 2...  Situation - Player 1 places OF marker with a clear line of site. Player 2 on his turn places a smoke grenade in a position to break LOS to the OF marker. Can Player 1 fire at Player 2’s soldier that then moves through the OF area which is now behind the smoke? Answer: no, unless the total amount of smoke through which Player 1 would shoot is less than 2u thick, in which case it would not break LOS but would only count as an additional cover (or get ignored altogether if it is exactly at 2u or less from the shooting Character, as any other partial cover). Note that in this case the OF marker is NOT removed, although it can not currently be acted upon, so long as the Character in OF does not takes any other action the OF marker will remain in place and, once the smoke has dissipated, Player 1 would still be able to take an OF shot at an eventual target. Situation 2 is the same as Situation 1 with the addition of Player 2’s soldier has the ability to move and shoot and is looking to move into the OF area behind the wall of smoke and then fire through the smoke at the enemy that placed the OF marker. Answer: same as above. If while moving he gets is a position from which Player 1 could take the OF shot (in other words if he moves so that there are less than 2u of smoke between them) he can be shot at using OF. If instead for example player 2 goes around the smoke and emerge on the other side, keeping all the time further away than 2u and beyond the range of the OF (which depends from the character shooting and is not the same for everyone) then he can shoot at Player 1. In this case note that the same would not be possible if Player 2 was under SF instead of OF, because a Character that starts the turn in SF can not shoot in the same turn regardless. I believe the root question is does smoke break/block LOS so that units can’t see to place or maintain OF markers or shoot at a enemy targets. Answer: yes it does, provide it is at least 2u thick, otherwise just counts as a partial cover. |
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Admin
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Post by Admin on Nov 3, 2019 13:35:01 GMT
Also better point out that Player 2 need to use another different character to throw the smoke grenade, because if he tries to do it with the character under OF, then Player 1 can take the OF shot BEFORE Player 2 soldier can throw the grenade...  |
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Post by mikekip on Nov 3, 2019 14:33:29 GMT
Thank you very much for taking the time to clarify things.
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Admin
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Post by Admin on Nov 3, 2019 14:51:46 GMT
no worries! Always happy to!
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Post by Rain on Feb 4, 2020 9:03:10 GMT
Could you, please, clarify Smoke Tokens rules from pg 18:
After the first smoke is placed, the second one is placed in the next turn of a player, who placed the first (by throwing a smoke grenade).
Then, the smoke disperses "at the beginning of the following turn". Is it the same player's next turn, or the ongoing turn of his opponent (that goes right after the turn when the second smoke marker is placed)?
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Post by Rain on Feb 4, 2020 9:39:17 GMT
I also want to ask if LOS (in game terms) is required to take an ordinar shooting acion?
It may sound strange, but in the current Rules version (2.3) LOS requirment is only specified for initiatiog OF and initiating/maintaining SF (and some other effect like throwing grenades beyond short range, etc.), but the only stated requirment for an ordinar shot is that the target mustn't have a Total Cover.
At the same time, Concealing Terrain counts as Partial Cover only (that only hinders shooting, but doesn't prevent it), so you can try to shoot a character behind a tree. The same way I thought about smoke. Additionaly, I found no requirments of LOS to spend an OF marcer (only to place it), so that your answer was a surprise to me.
Thus, could you please clarify better, how the Concealing Terrain works, and in which situations it gives Partial Cover (but still allows to shoot), if LOS (in terms it is described) is neccessary to shoot
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Admin
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Post by Admin on Feb 5, 2020 0:13:11 GMT
Could you, please, clarify Smoke Tokens rules from pg 18: After the first smoke is placed, the second one is placed in the next turn of a player, who placed the first (by throwing a smoke grenade). Then, the smoke disperses "at the beginning of the following turn". Is it the same player's next turn, or the ongoing turn of his opponent (that goes right after the turn when the second smoke marker is placed)? Yes, at the beginning of the player's following turn. Basically turn 1 player A throws a smoke grenade and place the first smoke template, then player B take his turn. At the beginning of his turn 2 player A place a second smoke template, then player B take his turn. Finally at the beginning of his turn 3 player A remove both smoke templates, then player B take his turn. |
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Admin
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Post by Admin on Feb 5, 2020 0:39:29 GMT
I also want to ask if LOS (in game terms) is required to take an ordinar shooting acion? It may sound strange, but in the current Rules version (2.3) LOS requirment is only specified for initiatiog OF and initiating/maintaining SF (and some other effect like throwing grenades beyond short range, etc.), but the only stated requirment for an ordinar shot is that the target mustn't have a Total Cover. At the same time, Concealing Terrain counts as Partial Cover only (that only hinders shooting, but doesn't prevent it), so you can try to shoot a character behind a tree. The same way I thought about smoke. Additionaly, I found no requirments of LOS to spend an OF marcer (only to place it), so that your answer was a surprise to me. Thus, could you please clarify better, how the Concealing Terrain works, and in which situations it gives Partial Cover (but still allows to shoot), if LOS (in terms it is described) is neccessary to shoot Yes, LOS is required to shoot and to place OF and SF markers. Normal cover does not break LOS, so unless behind Total cover you can shoot a target behind partial cover. Concealing Terrain is a special kind of Partial Cover that does break LOS, so a target behind Concealing Terrain can not be normally shot at. However "No terrain element or part of it offers Protection or Concealment if it is at 2u or less from a shooting Character, but any eventual part at least 1u wide that extends further than 2u would still count. (PAG. 31) So yes, you can shoot a character behind a tree, an hedge or a smoke curtain so long as you get at, or closer than 2u from it. You can obviously see it on the table, but you can not shoot at it, which simulates a visibility condition so poor that does not allow you to take a shot. You know that there is an enemy there, but you must get a better view or get closer if you want to engage it. Worth mention that this works both ways, so while normally you would not be able to see and target a Character behind Concealing Terrain, he OTOH would be at less than 2u from it and (assuming the Concealing Terrain is less than 2u thick) he could see and fire at you. Now if he does shoots first he would expose himself, so in the following opponent turn (only) he can be fired upon. This is not in the core rules, but it is actually addressed in the upcoming rule book supplement. Same mechanics as for crew popping out to shoot from a Tank hatch, or an open top vehicle or a building window... sorry can't fit everything in 60 pages...
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Post by Rain on Feb 9, 2020 19:35:09 GMT
Even though I find your explanation irrefragable, my playmate asks to explain a bit more some things on LOS obstruction:
Some actions, like placing an OF, SF, or throwing a grenade onto long range have requirment mentioned as a "clear LOS"; hovewer, some obstacles like a Protecting Cover hamper the LOS. So, may the LOS be "obstructed" by some obstacles, or become "not clear" while not completely broken?
In other worlds, is it possible to, for example, place an OF into a point the LOS to which goes over several pieces of a Protecting Terain (as long as they do not break the LOS, according to the terrain rooles)?
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Admin
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Post by Admin on Feb 9, 2020 20:10:49 GMT
yes, "clear" LOS within the rules only means "not broken" LOS, non "not even partially obstructed".
You can place an OF or SF marker, or throwing a grenade above Protecting Cover.
You can NOT place an OF or SF marker if the LOS would pass through Sheltering or (more than 2 u of) Concealing terrain.
You may throw a grenade even if you don't have clear LOS, at a reduced range, see the grenade rules on PAG. 17
cheers!
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